By WILLIAM J. WRIGHT
At 79, Lloyd Kaufman is still the fast-talking dynamo of promotion he was decades ago, an unstoppable force with a single-minded mission: Keep TROMA in the hearts and minds of its countless fans by any means possible. I first interviewed Kaufman nearly 20 years ago, just before the 2006 release of Poultrygeist, and if anything, he’s even more delightfully unhinged and enthusiastic about independent cinema. Perhaps that has something to do with the long-awaited remake of TROMA’s signature creation, THE TOXIC AVENGER, finally hitting theaters. Or maybe, Uncle Lloyd has found the fountain of youth in the projectile vomit, crushed skulls and dick jokes that have been TROMA trademarks for over half a century.
Conducted via Zoom, the interview that follows is, ostensibly, about the new TOXIC AVENGER, but in the dance of conversation, Lloyd Kaufman leads. It’s best just to stay out of his way.
(Before I can greet him or ask the first question, the TROMA co-founder is on a tear. He holds up a copy of Lloyd Kaufman Interviews, published by the University Press of Mississippi, for me to see. The cover features a smiling Kaufman, dapper in a smart suit and tie, holding a snub-nose .38 to his temple. Just as in my first interview with the filmmaker two decades ago, suicide, or the theatricality of it, is still a common theme with Kaufman, who, in his frustration with the state of cinema at the time, told me he was going “blow [his] brains out in the middle of 5th Avenue someday.”)
I talk about THE TOXIC AVENGER and the history [of TROMA in this book]! Mississippi University put it out. They still have slaves there! And how open-minded is that? Thank you so much, and thank you to RUE MORGUE and the gang there. We love RUE MORGUE, especially! And Toxie thanks RUE MORGUE … for giving us a little, you know, publicity over the years.
The last time we did an interview, it was, gosh, nearly 20 years ago…
That’s the usual.
Around the time of Poultreygeist. Back then, you didn’t seem too enthusiastic about a TOXIC AVENGER remake. What changed in the ensuing decades?
Lloyd Kaufman, auteur
Well, there were producers who came to us, but the people that they selected weren’t what we thought would be great. And luckily, they never came up with any real dough. They signed Arnold Schwarzenegger to one, but it didn’t happen. The script was no good. This script was great. Macon Blair was perfect. We couldn’t have a better choice. And then, Peter Dinklage, my God!
We were developing Toxic Avenger Part V: Mr. Toxie Goes to Washington, but we had to do something different. So we’re thinking, do we have a fat, you know, obese Toxie, maybe? Or Toxic changes into a woman, or he dies. I wanted to kill him, actually. And luckily, Legendary [came along], and Macon Blair was selected, and this wonderful cast. And how lucky am I? A sad, old, 80-year-old man who, with Michael Herz, has run this studio for 52 years, and is still here.
I think this new movie is going to give a boost to movies like Poultrygeist and Citizen Toxie. By the way, you’ll be happy to know, William, that Poultrygeist is being reimagined in California at this very moment by Mercedes the Muse, but it’ll be from the hen’s point of view. So, that should be very interesting. It’ll be a musical, not a classical musical, but it’ll have singing and dancing. I think it’s going to be great. The script is great, and she’s great. She’s made some other movies for us in the past, and they’re on the TROMA Now streaming service. All the Toxic Avenger movies and all of our work for 52 years, plus about 800 other independent movies.
Previously, I always thought that if there ever was a TOXIC AVENGER remake, you would do it yourself…
Well, luckily, it’s not me. It’s Macon Blair, right? I think having Peter Dinklage and the wonderful cast that he’s got – Elijah Wood, Kevin Bacon – they all love TROMA. They’re all fans. And Jacob Tremblay is only 18, but he handled himself so well. When I met him, he was much younger. His parents are big fans. You know, they’re all fans. How lucky are we that Legendary and Alex Garcia, who’s kind of our boss producer, somehow settled on making it? The minute they mentioned it, I said, “No problem.” It couldn’t be better. And then Peter Dinklage, my God! How great an idea is that? And he’s a big star, and he’s a great actor, and he has a good singing voice. His Cyrano de Bergerac was lovely.
Macon Blair, director of “THE TOXIC AVENGER,” and TROMA’s Lloyd Kaufman
Why was Macon Blair the man for the job?
He loves the film. He’s got a great body of work. He’s young enough to take risks and believe in what he’s doing. He’s got the heart and soul, and brain of a true auteur. Michael Herz and I have basically bought into the auteur theory of filmmaking since we were at Yale and hung around the Yale Film Society. They were all into auteur films. I spoke French, so I could read the Cahiers du Cinéma. There was a pile of those magazines, so it went into my head.
And Michael Herz and I both believe that. Get the right director and you’re going to have something great. And I know talent. I don’t know if I have any talent, but I knew James Gunn [had talent] the minute I read his resume and read his book, The Toy Collector, which he wrote as a Columbia University grad student. Trey Parker and Matt Stone. They sent us an unfinished film, Cannibal the Musical, and we told them, “We can’t give you a lot of money. Why don’t you go get it?” It’s better than the Broadway Book of Mormon, as good as that is. Nobody got it! All the gatekeepers were afraid because they’re all living on mortgages, and they don’t own the cars they bought, and they can’t pick up the bill. Whenever you have dinner with them, suddenly, when the check comes, they have to go to the bathroom. You know, they’re all full of shit, and they didn’t get it. Now, they get it. Now that they’ve seen Trump’s penis with two eyes, they get it. But we got it. And Cannibal the Musical is one of our best releases. We had a big reunion with Trey and Matt at Comic Con. And they love TROMA. We love them. James Gunn, Eli Roth. They’ve all been great.
You must be a proud papa.
Well, you know, TROMA has been around for 52 years. I can’t but be proud of it, and the fact that we have a huge footprint that’s unknown by the mainstream. I think you can see TROMA in a lot of movies these days. You look at a lot of movies today, and South Park, too, especially the first two seasons, there’s a lot of TROMA stuff in there. Even Kristi Noem shooting the dogs [on a recent episode]. You know, the only bad mail we ever got on the original TOXIC AVENGER was because we killed a dog with a shot shotgun. The blind woman’s dog got blown away. Nobody cared that the young boy’s head was crushed by the wheel of an automobile, forward and backward. But the dog got some hostility. They’re terrific. I think TROMA is in their blood to some extent.
Everything we’ve done for 52 years, all the people working for us who are on our sets, who are shooting our movies, acting in them, they’re all fans. And we’re fan-fueled for 52 years. James Gunn! Historic! Writing, directing, producing and running a studio! Nobody in history has done that. David O Selznick told people what to do and twisted the arms of directors to change scripts. So did Thalberg. They were high-handed studio heads, but James Gunn is the studio, and he wrote, directed and produced everything. He’s terrific.
TROMA is historic in that we’re deep in the reach of the underground, but here we are, an independent movie studio for 52 years. Surf Nazis Must Die, Blood Sucking Freaks, all these films that are kind of unique and didn’t get a lot of attention. Terror Firmer made in 1999 – Toxie’s in it, Toxie’s in it quite a bit – that movie just broke even. 1999 to last year. And it’s great. It’s great. But, you know, it takes a while for word of mouth if you don’t have any advertising,
Macon Blair is obviously a huge TROMA fan. Did you have any advice or guidance for him about nailing the TROMA style for THE TOXIC AVENGER?
We met a few times. He didn’t need any advice. The only advice I gave him was use your brain, your heart, your soul and fly to victory. “To thine own self be true,” a phrase coined by one William Shakespeare, who wrote the best-selling book 101 Money-Making Screenplay Ideas, otherwise known as Hamlet. You know, do what you believe in. That’s art. Make art. Don’t worry about the money. You know, Fantastic Four? They’re going to lose all their money on that. I mean be something different, creative! Sinners! There’s a movie! Terrific!
Macon Blair’s TOXIC AVENGER is beautiful, and it appeals. If it doesn’t appeal to a general audience and the underground audience and the TROMA audience, I’ll eat my… I’ll kill myself. How’s that? I guarantee you I will kill myself if people don’t appreciate this movie. It’s a beautiful film, and I just can’t believe it won’t please everybody – and it’s unrated. It delivers whatever people expect in that department, but much more. It’s got heart and soul and Peter Dinklage as Toxie has a choice in epiphany: I should help the world, even though I had this accident. And he has issues with his family, stepson and all that.And it has plenty of TROMA elements, a lot of callbacks to TROMA for the TROMA fans. [Toxie’s] transformation, just that alone is a work of art. You can put that transformation scene in the Museum of Modern Art – on a wall as video art. It’s beautiful. It’s great. Whereas the Toxic Avenger’s original transformation scene, in its day, was eye popping. It was pretty crazy …
So, we got a lot of attention, and of course, got heavily destroyed by the Motion Picture Association of America, but thanks to wordof mouth and home video, the Director’s Cut came out, and then Toxie 2 and 3 and Citizen Toxie and the cartoons and the toys. Word of mouth, you can’t buy that. We do have that, thanks to our fans. And now, Macon Blair and the young people at Cineverse are all steeped in TROMA history, and they’ve not only shown great respect, but great love for TROMA. Michael Herz and I are very appreciative of what has been done. Toxie’s our Mickey Mouse. He’s on all our corporate stationary and business cards. This is a great film, whether it does well or not, it’s a great film. It will endure. It’ll be there, no problem.
THE TOXIC AVENGER from Legendary Pictures and Cineverse is now playing, only in theaters.
